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1. Yazeed
   Founder

   Rules for DotA:
   *Subject to change depending on number of teams.
   TDA Rules in a sense with some modifications (and creep blocking is fine)

   - Game mode: -RD 5v5
   - Version 6.59d will be used
   - Single Elimination
   - Best 2 out of 3* for Finals (flip coin for scourge/sentinel)
   - Other team can Forfeit 30 Minutes in.
   - If player disconnects due to computer failure before 5 Minutes, and team kills are within 2, game can be restarted.
   - Games can only be paused if a referee allows it for reason like bathroom break.
   - A referee will be monitoring the game
   - Since there is a time constraint, games that go over 1:30 hours will be judged according to towers and team kills/deaths

   Posted 12 months ago #

2. jontheskillful
   Member

   i think dota should be -CM

   last year's RD was okay, but with CM it's the same as -xl

   just allows for more fair team line ups since -rd is a casual mode, and -rd and -cm have absolutely no difference in the amount of extra time taken (maybe an extra 30 seconds if the team captains are indecisive with their picks and bans)

   if you're doing the league mode version you might as well do the league mode itself

   Posted 11 months ago #

3. Chief
   Member

   If time really the factor, then why set the game limit to 1:30 mintues? A good dota game shouldn't be more than 60 minutes.

   CM will only speed up the games because of the right variety of heroes. Counter picks and the right hero for the job will insure that games will go quickly.

   Captions Mode is basically just like old school -AP chat picks, just way more organized.

   RD for causal. CM for competitive.

   Posted 11 months ago #

4. Yazeed
   Founder

   -RD adds an element of challenge and luck to the tournament. It worked last year.
   Personally, I think it's a nice challenge to catch a team off their element and see if they can work with what they have rather. I understand how competitive tournaments usually give you specific rules and what to practise with, but -RD makes it interesting and challenging.

   I am good for taking suggestions, but we are not changing RD sorry =)

   Posted 11 months ago #

5. jontheskillful
   Member

   man, luck into a competitive game makes it casual
   like brawl, the random tripping that you can't deactivate has screwed me out of a few matches

   even though it's like 6 games out of 1000+ that i've played, it's still a piss-off

   man

   RD is so bad

   also, i think you should remove the time limit to forfeit
   i don't think it will really matter if a team forfeits at 20 minutes, and making them wait an extra 10 would sort of be pointless
   they could all quit anyways

   topic 3: tda rules are trash
   come on man, tda is the new pub
   only reason TDA players like RD is because 5 people who don't know each other, or who don't know all of the players on their team, jump onto a team and play a pick up game of dota

   when you have an organized team of 5 people who like to coordinate picks it's a different ballgame

   it's like saying you play brawl being able to choose a random 5 characters

   the guy who gets a 5 roll of falco, meta knight, snake, marth, dedede will roll the guy who gets sonic, ike, captain falcon, pokemon trainer, ganondorf no matter what either pick

   or i guess the 5 pool is shared between two players, and it's metaknight, capt falc, ike, sonic, pokemon trainer

   the guy who gets metaknight will win

   i'm fine with RD i guess

   BUT ADMIT IT
   CM IS SUPERIOR

   you might as well make CS 1.6 a $16000 starting, awps are banned, cs_assault only

   and brawl with items

   Posted 11 months ago #

6. IanB
   Public Relations Admin

   Jon, brawl is meant to be like that. That's why melee is still so popular.

   CM vs RD is not that big of a deal. The major difference is the ability to ban certain heros, but every game it will be the same, so why play a mode that's derived off-AP and noone even tries to go for krob, es. It's the same every game.

   RD accounts for a possibility for all heroes to appear. Nonetheless, if your team is good and well coordinated, there are no heroes out there which will rig the game balance that much. RD also gives chance to teams who are not a completely synchronized. So by having this "double edginess" RD is more preferable.

   I am cool with both modes, but RD went well last year and I see no reason it should do anything "imbalanced" this year.

   Posted 11 months ago #

7. Yazeed
   Founder

   Jon man if you're ok with it why are ya giving us a lot of trouble here haha.
   Man I would be fine playing DotA with whatever surprise anyone wants to hit me with, unless you're winning 6 figure cash prizes, I would come in this tournament with a smile and leave with one too even if I lost.

   Posted 11 months ago #

8. jontheskillful
   Member

   okay, okay, sorry for causing trouble
   and of course i'm going to have a blast no matter what happens, had a ton of fun last year and got rolled in the tournaments
   but i just want you to admit that CM is superior to RD in almost every way except for casual/non-coordinated team play where captains give heroes to players that the players don't want

   COME ON, JUST SAY I'M RIGHT

   but yeah i agree with ian's point of the same game every time with cm
   every game it'll be es, na, omni, etc etc banned and top tier picks for each team

   edit: also throwing the suggestion of -rdrs (random side) for every game, that way sent/scourge is always random and there's no need to flip a coin

   it will save a few minutes in the long run too

   Posted 11 months ago #

9. Chief
   Member

   Will DotA keys be on the computers? Some scrubs can't handle the hotkeys.

   Posted 11 months ago #

10. jontheskillful
    Member

    speaking of that, would it be cool if i brought a flash drive with the dotakeys application on it?
    it's to customize hotkeys for people who like to customize them, or to use them for item hotkeying which is what i like to use it for
    and of course, to be fair, i'd offer it to anybody else at the event who'd like it and is not used to clicking items

    or likes to reassign their whole warcraft hotkeys like chief does

    Posted 11 months ago #

11. Nate
    Member

    LESS DOTA, MORE CS.

    J/k

    Posted 11 months ago #

12. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    *my opinion*

    I think that we should be using the most rough version of DotA, no addons, no mods, etc. It is another level of skill to be able to know all the hotkeys as opposed to 'qwer'ing it.

    Because then I want my dota theme manager with dust theme where any hero will shine on my screen. :D

    The less things we add, the more people will be happy in the end as opposed to giving people who are already good another edge.

    Posted 11 months ago #

13. jontheskillful
    Member

    vanilla dota huh?
    i personally hate modifying any hotkeys (hate hon for QWER), but it's just nice to have for items to tp faster, bottle runes, use a tango, etc

    and like i said, i could come earlier if you wanted and put dotakeys on to each computer

    so for the people who don't memorize hotkeys, it'd put them at more of an advantage (clicking vs a player who knows hotkeys / custom hotkeys vs a player who knows hotkeys)

    it really would be the same as me reconfiguring the keyboard, which is what we'd probably end up doing to swap the number bar with the number pad

    as with the RD thing, i'll be fine if this is not allowed, and you guys don't want me to change the keyboard settings
    but i don't see how it's a big deal

    Posted 11 months ago #

14. Yazeed
    Founder

    Jon
    You're so troublesome sometimes lol, you're way too leet for us.

    Posted 11 months ago #

15. jontheskillful
    Member

    okay i'm sorry
    no more out of me

    so official rules, subject to changes, are:

    - Game mode: -RD 5v5
    - Version 6.59d will be used
    - Single Elimination
    - Best 2 out of 3* for Finals (flip coin for scourge/sentinel)
    - Other team can Forfeit 30 Minutes in.
    - If player disconnects due to computer failure before 5 Minutes, and team kills are within 2, game can be restarted.
    - Games can only be paused if a referee allows it for reason like bathroom break.
    - A referee will be monitoring the game
    - Since there is a time constraint, games that go over 1:30 hours will be judged according to towers and team kills/deaths
    - No external applications or keyboard modifications of any kind
    - No limits to the amount of arcane rings, necronomicons, eul's scepters, or guinsoo scythes per team are enforced
    - No restrictions to creep blocking, including sprout and fissure
    - Backdooring of any sort IS allowed, including teleporting to units, invisibly, or camping out of line of sight
    - Item pooling is allowed via selling consumables or otherwise
    - If a game is not remade with a disconnected player, items are allowed to be transferred to allied heroes, and the disconnected player's hero is allowed to be controlled by a teammate

    is this correct??

    i know i'm being a pain in the ass douchebag but i just want shit clear like the other games' rule sets :(

    Posted 11 months ago #

16. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    Jon, I believe that TDA has this:

    TDA Rules v1.15

    The official up-to-date list of TDA rules can always be found here.

    * These rules are only in effect when you participate in a TDA game announced by TDABot.
    * Leaving a game or the use of hacks will result in a ban.
    * If either team has less than 4 people remaining, you may leave without a ban. If the opponents are down one player and you want to leave to make it even, all allies must agree to it in all chat.
    * Forfeit is allowed after 50 minutes have passed and your entire team agrees in all chat by saying "ff" or "forfeit". In a 4v5, the team of 4 can forfeit after 30 minutes.
    * Remake is allowed if 6 or more players agree (at least 2 from each team). Remake is also allowed if someone leaves in the first 15 minutes and 3 or more people agree to remake within the next 2 minutes.
    * Going AFK frequently or for long periods may result in a ban.
    * Intentional game ruining things like item stealing from allies and creep blocking are bannable.
    * You may not teleport into an enemy base without your creeps there, any other backdooring IS allowed.
    * Racism or extreme trash talking may result in a report for review by a neutral moderator.
    * To report or appeal a ban go to tdabots.com

    Particularly: * You may not teleport into an enemy base without your creeps there, any other backdooring IS allowed.

    Posted 11 months ago #

17. jontheskillful
    Member

    this is another one of those troublesome facepalm posts from me but i have to reply

    how are tda rules relevant to this tournament, or professional play at all?

    mine are mostly CEVO rules, except i changed things to be allowed because they were not stated

    so creep blocking of any sorts IS allowed (since yazeed stated that), and teleport backdooring is NOT allowed

    are those the only changes to what i said?

    i really am sorry for being such a pain in the ass, i'm just 'rattled' that all of the other games are following professional rule sets and dota is left to rot

    Posted 11 months ago #

18. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    Jon, I just pasted it in to show where its coming from. It's my own opinion that bd'ing the base, unless the creeps are there should not be present.

    Posted 11 months ago #

19. jontheskillful
    Member

    ahh my bad, thought you were co-creating the rules or something

    okay, so creep blocking is still allowed, and backdooring is still in the air under my made up list of rules and uncovered-rules-assumed-to-be-allowed?

    i really am sincerely sorry, as much as it seems i am not from my constant QQing

    just trying to push for a clear and complete set of rules

    Posted 11 months ago #

20. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    That seems right Jon. However, during the event, you're free to ask judges (or admins) if you have a question about something.

    Posted 11 months ago #

21. Rio54
    Member

    Even if this is a fund raising event it should follow professional rules. It doesn't take a lot of effort to take luck out of the game. I know we want the tournament to be inclusive but we need to set some kind of standards.

    I suggest:

    -Using -CMRS. -CM mode brings in a lot of strategy that -RD neglects. Chances are games will end faster since teams will be able to balance a line-ups around pushing and winning early. Random side is for obvious reasons but is not necessary.

    -Using a newer version is always better. Each version of DOTA is more balanced than the last with exceptions of versions with added heroes. 6.59d is the latest league-stable map but 6.60+ versions are far more balanced. I suggest using 6.63b, it is the newest version and I haven't heard any complaints about it.

    -Forfeit times are not necessary. A team can choose to forfeit at anytime but not playing out a match is frowned upon so I can't see it being a problem. Teams came to win, they will expend every chance they have.

    -If some technical problems are encountered in the first 15mins, remaking should be an option, if there is reason. It should be up to the teams and ultimately a supervisor to decide whether or not the game should be played out.

    -Single elimination makes sense. With the time constraints there wouldn't be enough time for anything else. If the mode is -CMRS, there can be little argument for a second game. It's like playing a game of chess, if you are evenly matched to start with it's your own decisions that lead to your lose. Best 2/3 is a good idea for the finals considering two very evenly matched teams might play.

    -Teams should be allowed 3 pauses with warning. Only for technical issues, not as a time-out.

    -DOTA-keys without a doubt SHOULD be allowed. I only use DOTA-keys for items myself but many others use it for serious hotkey remapping. It would be a massive disadvantage for those who use don't use DOTA's default hotkeys. If you look at HON, everything is customizable to allow players to have a comfortable configuration. If you are a scrub who wishes to click items or abilities and feel outmatched by those who use hotkey remapping you should probably get with the times. In competitive terms, clicking is obsolete in DOTA.

    -As for other external software or hardware. I believe the keyboards and mouses provided should be used to put everyone on an even playing field. I personally would love to bring my mx518 but it has advantages over a basic Microsoft mouse. Of course other remapping software can be used as long as it's not sketchy. DOTA-keys, warkeys, etc. Nothing that might come with a hack.

    -First I'm not sure why TDA rules were posted. Those rules are based around public pick up matches, not competitive matches. If you look at CEVO or CAL rules, you will get a better idea of how the game should be played.
    -Creep blocking should be allowed
    -Fissure blocking should not be allowed
    -Backdooring should be allowed
    -Multiple necros, meks, euls, sheeps, AR should not be allowed.
    -No teleporting into your enemy's base without creeps around.
    -Items can't be pooled effectively in DOTA so no reason to argue here.
    -If a player drops from the game and the game continues. Items should be
    pawned not transferred to allies.
    My reasoning for the backdooring is that DOTA already has an anti-backdoor mechanism so if you are the point in the game where you can out damage a rack's regen then the game has lasted too long. My reasoning for limiting activate items is so they can't be exploited. For example mass arcane ring pushes. I can't imagine this will be a problem, most teams wouldn't want more than one of each of these items with the exception of sheep. Items should not be able to be transferred because if someone with average items leaves and a carry gets a hold of them, hypothetically the game should be heavily sided toward the team with a huge carry. Another option could be to keep the items on the hero and allow allies to use them.

    I'm leaving these rules up for argument. I think I've covered most of what I wanted to say. Oh and may the best team win!

    Posted 11 months ago #

22. jontheskillful
    Member

    "-As for other external software or hardware. I believe the keyboards and mouses provided should be used to put everyone on an even playing field. I personally would love to bring my mx518 but it has advantages over a basic Microsoft mouse. Of course other remapping software can be used as long as it's not sketchy. DOTA-keys, warkeys, etc. Nothing that might come with a hack."

    didn't think of this actually, i could technically bind two inventory slots to the two thumb buttons on my mx518, and that would put me at an advantage if dotakeys was to be restricted

    custom keyboard/mouse = restricted? (a G15 keyboard could be brought in and have 15 customized keys too, 6 of them for items, though they're kind of out of the way of the left hand)

    Posted 11 months ago #

23. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    Rio, one does not have to be a scrub to not use the dota-keys. Just by playing vanilla DotA, that brings out even more skill related to memorizing every keybind, as opposed to re-binding everything and making it easier.

    HoN is a different game, which I love , of course. But it is a different game.

    Backdooring is allowed, it is just you cannot attack base unless your creeps are there. I do agree that if you can outdamage the rax regen, the game has been going on for way too long.

    I am for having a perfectly clean "vanilla" dota, with basic keyboard, basic mice and basic key layout. That, in my opinion, is the true removal of "luck" or "advantage".
    Again, all of this is my opinion and is open to discussion.

    Posted 11 months ago #

24. jontheskillful
    Member

    i think the point is more for items
    it's really much more efficient to use inventory hotkeying to tango, salve while juking somebody for example, or being the difference between teleporting back to fountain or having the stun/interrupt/killing blow just hit you by half a second or so

    or dust, or clarity, euls the enemy, sheep the enemy, arcane ring, etc etc

    while i agree at the basic keyboard and mice, and key layout, i do disagree that it's a removal of advantage, as somebody who has memorized the hotkeys will be at the advantage

    actually, you could argue it both ways validly

    -RD is really the only element of luck being thrown into the already semi-RNG 'luck' gameplay

    also, i believe RS is not a valid mode in 6.59d
    i suggest (emphasis on the suggest) using 6.61b as the current CEVO map version is set to 6.61b

    but what exactly do you mean by backdooring is allowed but you can't attack without the creeps?

    Posted 11 months ago #

25. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    Cevo is using 6.61b as the latest update made all previous versions unplayable. It is one of the issues, as the machines are not up to latest bnet update, so we can go for both. We are doing test-runs tomorrow/Thursday and if there are any instabilities well gladly go for the recent one.

    Now I'm back to my opinion "mode".
    Rebinds on items are nice indeed, but it does make the gameplay easier. While I do agree that it is ergonomically not pleasing to go on numpad for scrolls, tangos etc, it is also how the game was played. If one wants an easier ride HoN would provide that.

    And one more note, isn't RD more fun for good players- by allowing a random pool we remove the premade team logic and bringing it down to who adapts faster/has better skills.

    Posted 11 months ago #

26. Yazeed
    Founder

    Hey Jon & Rio

    - You can forfeit anytime, including now before the event lol
    - No Dota-Keys software
    - You can use your own mouse for the sake of comfort and sensitivity rather than custom buttons and short cuts (no installing mouse specific software and such)

    Will you stop finding possible loop holes or anything that is unnecessary to worry about.
    It's -RD and the map will be whatever is Stable from getdota.com

    Posted 11 months ago #

27. jontheskillful
    Member

    lol i love game debates
    but okay, thanks for clearing that up
    and ah yeah, i totally forgot about that anti hack/map virus patch or whatever that destabilized all earlier versions

    i guess i'll still bring my mx518 for the sake of comfort

    now, for the sake of continuing this argument (without trying to change the rules anymore)

    yes, i agree with you ian
    RD is more fun for everybody because, as you had said way earlier, it's not the same old boring game every time of 8 bans and 10 picks out of the 20-30 heroes that are so commonly used
    in terms of balance, however, i'd have to disagree
    you can only do so much to synergize heroes in RD, whereas in CM you can have a huge ass tree chart of your possible picks/bans
    though the difference isn't THAT huge, it's not always possible to have a pick to counter a certain hero in RD, and that's sort of where the balance begins to break

    it's like the chess analogy, except you're given random pieces and you get screwed over with two knights and no rooks, and the other guy has two rooks instead of any knights

    i'm a noob compared to somebody who plays chess more than twice a year, but i'd definitely prefer a rook over a knight (i believe they hold a higher value)

    now, you could argue that if the guy with two knights beat the guy with two rooks, he'd be much more skilled, which would be true (in my opinion, as this whole post is)
    but it wouldn't have been fair in the first place, and he/she just won a game that was unbalanced to the opponent's favor

    and the reason the game was played without inventory hotkeying is because warcraft 3 just did not have it possible (actually i'm not 100% certain you can't recode/make it so you can, so correct me if i'm wrong)

    moving the left hand all the way over is just so annoying to do for certain things

    chaining disables, not so much, but i see your point about the skill thing

    A VALID ARGUMENT, COMRADES

    either way, you didn't address my backdooring question

    what did you mean by not being allowed to attack without creeps in there? wouldn't it not be backdooring if the creeps were there?

    Posted 11 months ago #

28. Yazeed
    Founder

    'moving the left hand all the way over is just so annoying to do for certain things'
    Quote of the day!

    Um, if there are no creeps in your base, don't attack buildings/towers. Does that seem right?

    Posted 11 months ago #

29. jontheskillful
    Member

    yeah, but he said backdooring is allowed, just not attacking while creeps were absent

    but if creeps were present, it wouldn't be backdooring

    unless he meant the regen thing for 6.61b and that it'd be pointless to backdoor because of the massive tower regen

    but then you still could backdoor to take a weak tower or team backdoor

    "Backdooring is allowed, it is just you cannot attack base unless your creeps are there. I do agree that if you can outdamage the rax regen, the game has been going on for way too long."

    Posted 11 months ago #

30. IanB
    Public Relations Admin

    Jon, yazeed said the same thing. BD is not just base, it's also the towers. I was talking about the base.
    DotA forums win, yet again haha.

    Posted 11 months ago #

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